Seth Klarman on Index Funds

by Todd Metheny on July 27, 2010

David Dreman, author of  several books focused on contrarian investing, was quoted in one of his books as saying something to the affect of, nobody beats the market, except for the people that do.  And yes, there are people that do (like Seth Klarman).

Some people are still very resistant to that idea.  If you read Burton Malkiel‘s, A Random Walk Down Wall Street, for instance, it’s easy enough to believe that anyone that beats the market is just doing so by random chance.*  If you do, in fact believe that, there’s an alternative that takes some of the gamble out of the equation.  The answer, of course, is one that you already know: indexing.

*While at one time the most dominant theory in academic circles, the efficient market hypothesis has lost some of its credibility to the rise and prevalence of value investing.  Warren Buffett has been among the most vocal critics…but he has plenty of company, including people like Klarman and Dreman.  The people that have beaten the market by the largest margins over time don’t believe that their life’s work is nothing more than random chance.  I don’t believe it either.

Index investing is the brain child Vanguard founder and former CEO Jack Bogle.  I honestly think Jack Bogle is a great man.  He personally strove for things that actually helped the individual investor succeed.  Vanguard’s roots were about low minimums and very low management fees.  I think they’re moving away from that somewhat – but that was Mr. Bogle’s vision.  It was one that changed the entire investment industry.  Investing wasn’t just for rich people anymore.  If you’ve read any of Mr. Bogle’s work (or heard him speak), I think you’d agree that he makes a pretty compelling case for indexing.**

**You’re probably familiar with the idea of indexing.  If you are, feel free to skip this section.  If you aren’t, you’re about to be!  Indexing is, basically, the idea that because it’s so difficult to beat the market, the most important thing to manage is costs.  With an index fund, you’ll never beat the market, because essentially, you are the market.  You’re copying the market’s performance.  You’re controlling one of the few things you can control, which is cost, by paying lower fees than you would if you invested in a mutual fund with a manager that has no better than a 50/50 chance of outperforming the market.  An index fund copies the performance of a specific group of stocks.  The S&P 500, for instance, is a common bench mark that mutual funds, pension funds and hedge funds measure themselves against.  An index simply invests your money across the stocks in the S&P.  Since these stocks are chosen according to a precise formula based on size, there is no decision making on the part of the manager.  That’s why they can give you such low fees.

Not everyone is sold on indexing, though.  Specifically, many famous value investors think it’s a bad idea.  And why wouldn’t they?  If you’ve beaten the market like a playground bully, indexing would seem quite unappealing.  Seth Klarman points out that it’s essentially the opposite of contrarian investing, that is, instead of buying what’s out of favor, you set out to buy what’s popular.  In his own words:

“I still believe indexing is a horrible idea. Stocks trade up when they’re added to the index so the index investor is paying up. I’m more likely to buy the companies kicked out of the index. For the average person, however, they don’t do enough research to own individual stocks. The idea of owning stocks for the long run is a disservice to investors, because many are not there for the long run. Many got out in 2008 when they should have been buying, because the entry point matters most. Transaction costs and Taxes don’t matter if the market goes nowhere. I’m very worried about another 10 years of zero or low returns since the market has run up so fast.”

Klarman is talking about an index with a finite amount of stocks in them, like the S&P.  I think his quote ignores the fact that you’re perfectly capable of buying a Total Stock Market Index, that includes almost all the relevant publicly traded companies.  Still, his point is a good one:  if he had to buy every one of something, he’d rather be stuck with every stock kicked out of the index than every stock added to the index.  A contrarian strategy.***  Buy when stocks are being sold indiscriminately, and sell when they are dear.

***The expression contrarian investing was popularized by David Dreman in his book Contrarian Investing.

My Roth IRA is invested completely in index funds.  I think the strategy has value.  It’s better than the alternative of choosing higher cost mutual funds that may or may not outperform.  But I’m not a complete Boglehead.  I also have a taxable account that I own individual securities in.  In fact, I’ve been known to follow Klarman into some trades now and then.

In that taxable account, I attempt to practice value investing.  The problem with value investing is, while the broad strokes of the concepts are simple, the approach requires a tremendous amount of time.  I don’t have the requisite knowledge to understand many opportunities.  In fact, many of the situations that Klarman invests in are complicated.  In many (most, even) of these situations I have to pass on the opportunity because it’s outside my circle of competence.

It’s unlikely that your average investor is going to be able to produce success (over time – anyone can get lucky in the short term) on the level that Seth Klarman has.  By definition, about half of all investors have to underperform the market.  Index funds are a simple solution.  You could spend hundred of hours studying and evaluating stocks…and still underperform the market.  Or you could spend an hour rebalancing each year with index funds and pretty much tie the market.****

****Or, if you really want to automate things, a Target Date Retirement Fund does your rebalancing for you.  Vanguard offers these funds of funds invested entirely in index funds.

Anyway, I’m always interested in anything that Klarman has to say.  I thought I would share his comment about index investing here.  It’s not necessarily my opinion, but Klarman knows what he’s talking about.  If you’re only going to listen to one person about markets and investing, Klarman might be a good choice.  Good luck and thanks for reading.

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Breitburn Energy Partners

by Todd Metheny on July 21, 2010

I’ve sat on this post for a bit because I’ve been excited about the Avera post going live.  I also worry that this post isn’t relevant enough to enough people.  Still, I think there’s something to be learned by talking and looking at individual companies.  Ed.


I followed Seth Klarman into Breitburn Energy Partners (BBEP) awhile back. I got in after the dividend had been cut, under the premise that the dividend was going to come back and Klarman was adding to his position.*  This stock is one of special interest to me, and I follow the news on it pretty closely. I have an average cost basis of about $12 per share.**

*Following people into trades is risky.  Besides the fact that they could be wrong, you don’t know when they’re going to sell.  What you’re doing is not value investing unless you’re doing your own analysis and determining what the fair value of a company is.  Otherwise, you’re speculating.  I know I’m saying that this is what I’ve done.  Nobody’s perfect;)

**Which is unfortunate, because I started following the company at about $8 per share. I didn’t pull the trigger because (a) I didn’t have much money to play with at the time and (b) I didn’t know as much about the company at that point.  Hindsight is always 20-20, isn’t it?

They did, of course, reinstate the dividend, which is currently about $1.50 per share, per year (just under 10% yield).   Making the stock even more important to me is the fact that I put a couple of friends in it at about $14 a share awhile back.  The stock recently pulled back to about $13 a share and I advised them to add to it.***   Because this is a Master Limited Partnership, I believe the yield is sustainable.****  At $13 per share, obviously, you have an effective yield of about 11.5%.

***I sort of wish they wouldn’t ask me.  I don’t like feeling responsible.

****Some yields are high because of a very depressed stock price.  If the company was originally attempting to offer a yield of about 2%, but the stock has fallen so much that it’s now yielding 10%, the yield may be in danger, because there might be some strong economic forces at work.  The company probably has a sound reason, like declining cash flows, why the price is being driven down, making the yield potentially unsustainable.  Certain types of stocks, like Real Estate Investment Trusts (REITs) and MLPs, operate under specific tax rules that require they distribute large portions of their income.  A 10% yield probably isn’t alarming if you see it on an MLP.

That’s competitive among MLPs, but I have always believed that there was more to this play than just the yield.   For one, Klarman tends to focus on special situations, such as spin-offs, takeover plays and distressed debt.   He bought most of his shares at around $6 per share, but he wasn’t just buying into the company because of the potential yield that it offers him.   I might do something like that – but Klarman has produced 20% annual returns for the last 30 years or something, and you don’t do that by getting excited by a little yield.

This is nothing but speculation, but it’s intelligent speculation, and I thought it was worth sharing.   In a recent interview with Seth Hamot over at Selected Financials, Hamot talks specifically about the BBEP situation, saying,

“BreitBurn Energy Partners (BBEP) – This company found they were overleveraged at one point last year and so they cut the dividend distribution, causing the stock to go down to $6. Dividend money went to cut down debt and now it’s at $15. We went from $6 to $15.  Baupost is there and the interesting thing is that they got involved with a proxy contest with the largest shareholder. Quicksilver, the largest shareholder, went on the board and removed 2 guys – the chairman and CEO, the two folks whose name is in the company name itself. They became management employees.

Quicksilver (KWK) is overleveraged and owned 21 million shares of this company at one point, or about 40% of the company. They had a proxy contest and those 2 were removed. You have to take a step back and wonder what’s going on. If there is nothing going on, why would they bother to remove people from the board who will object and not be happy about the situation? There’s a possibility that managers were taken off the board of directors so that potential M&A activity could be kept segregated from the operations, which offers a potential exit strategy for Quicksilver. In the meantime, I got a 10% dividend and 37.5 cents per quarter per share, not too bad at all, and mostly tax-free.”

Earlier in the interview, Hamot talks about the contrarian slant his fund takes, specifically looking for companies that have recently cut their dividend.  He knows that this prompts selling by the people holding the stock for its yield, and thinks that this is a good time to look at the merits of the actual company.

If you don’t know, Baupost is Seth Klarman’s hedge fund.  The entire comment is interesting, but the M&A speculation really jumped out at me.  BBEP is a relatively small company, with a market cap of about $800 million.  Are they a potential takeover target by one of the larger, diversified energy companies?  They’re also in the business of owning pipelines, which is, in part at least, why they’re able to retain their status as an MLP.  Any ideas on who would be interested in this company?

Disclosure:  Long BBEP

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Avera Motors

July 19, 2010

It’s 9 pm on a warm Friday night in July.  The year is 2010.  But you know that.  My wife and I are in Florida visiting her family.  We’ve just arrived in town from St. Louis, and we’re on our way to see the facility for an automotive start-up called Avera Motors. Avera’s CEO, RJ [...]

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Leveraged Retirement Investing

July 8, 2010

I try to read the Freakonomics blog in the NY Times when I can find the time.  I still remember when the first book came out, and how I felt like everywhere I went people were talking about the book and the ideas it contained.  At the time, I think it was something unique.  Lots [...]

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Owner Earnings

July 6, 2010

You’re probably familiar with the concept of earnings.  Earnings is investor speak for profits.  A company’s earnings should tell us how much money a company made in a given period.  This matters when choosing investments because the company can, theoretically at least, take the money that it makes and either (1) distribute it to shareholders, [...]

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The BP Situation

June 28, 2010

I’d like to start by saying that this situation with BP (BP) is an awful one.  It’s been called the worst ecological disaster in the history of the United States.  This post isn’t about any type of political reform.  I don’t know what should be done, or what should have been done, or what will [...]

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Berkshire Short List Announced?

June 26, 2010

I was reading a Li Lu talk over at the always excellent Street Capitalist, and immediately something jumped out at me.  The talk itself, is, predictably, full of lots of insight into intelligent investing from Lu, one of the best investors in the world.  I encourage you to read it.  That’s not what caught my [...]

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Housing Prices

June 24, 2010

My wife and I live in St. Louis.  For the most part, housing prices in St. Louis have weathered the recession better than the national averages.  A recent article, however, stated that foreclosures here are on the rise, and sales on the decline.  Based on the expiration of the new homebuyer’s credit recently, this is [...]

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Father’s Day

June 21, 2010

My father died when I was sixteen years old.  It’s one of those few, unique events, that permanently change your life and how you look at it.  As I write this, 12 years later, it’s still the tragedy of my life.  Most days I don’t think about it.  To this day, though, I can be [...]

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Another Bill Ackman GGP Presentation

June 15, 2010

I don’t have anything new to say about General Growth Properties (GGP). Simon Property Group (SPG) is sticking to their guns, according to reports, and does not plan to bid on GGP again. The market continues to value the stock below the $15 per share that it is being recapitalized at. Bill Ackman continues to [...]

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